Question...

[Heath]

I was able to get a Gnarwhal and Avalanche and Sasquatch from stores without having to pay ~double. All that they've done is replace the greedy scalpers with greedy manufacturers, but at least before I could still get a yoyo at a reasonable price.

Now Heath at Vssnyc wants to do the same. Pfft. No thanks. While I realize that there are still suckers who will and do buy at these ridiculously greedy prices, I won't be one them.

If the problem really was scalpers, a few lines of code to limit purchases to one per person would go a long way without alienating the consumer. I've seen Canvases and Chiefs selling for more than the already crazy markups, so nothing was really fixed anyway.

have my prices really gone up that high? anodizing in such small batches of colorways costs money. when it costs me more, it costs you more. i'd hate to be rude, but thats how it works.

let me attempt to explain why. i know i am going to get flamed, but everyone thinks some home brew makers are out to get them right now for some reason, and i can assure you that is not the case.

with the community growing exponentially as of late (check this last years forum members joined), home brew yoyos become rarer and rarer. companies do not gain revenue at the speed booms rise. as more people join, batches must be spread thinner and thinner, making scalping rampant among popular companies products.

should scalpers take advantage of my prices, i intend to raise prices as a countermeasure to assure my consumers can get my products at as low of a price as possible. i know people are thinking i am crazy, but that is how supply and demand works. if scalpers are getting 200$+ for a yoyo i sold initially for 120$, i didnt make enough to reach demand. it happens a lot, especially with collectibles.

makers must walk a fine line between being profitable and keeping what you all love attainable. if we make too much we risk having to wait and lose time and potentially money. if we make too little, they get scalped and people who wanted the yoyo have to sometimes pay scalpers price for their specific desired colors or designs. i cannot speak for other makers, but i know i personally cannot afford to make enough yoyos to meet my current demand. i simply do not have the resources or the time.

essentially, those complaining want a person who has done nothing but bought a yoyo to make more on it than the individual who has put HOURS of time and THOUSANDS of dollars into its design, right? what you are basically saying is home brew makers should be punished for not being able to make hundreds of yoyos on the drop of a hat, and that, is bull.

i DO NOT want to raise my prices, but at the same time i also want to feel like the people being put to work (myself and the dealers), are making what they deserve in comparison to people who have done far less. i understand that scalping happens, and will ALWAYS happen in this collectors world. i cannot control consumers buying yoyos at prices set by scalpers.
i can however, adjust my prices to counteract this. this is the thin line we as makers must balance on every time we make a release.

in the end, if you dont want to see VsNYYCs prices rise, dont buy from scalpers. if you missed out on the product, be patient! the BST is constantly fluctuating based on current sale prices. not buying at prices you deem unrealistic is the best way to say something. i think 120$ is realistic for a splashed or washed yoyo (often both) made in such a low quantity. if you don't, let me know by not buying them. if they sell out in 10 minutes, what are you showing me as consumers other than my products AND their prices are well received?

i can go deeper in if you want, but i am already breaking into a subject some are not to familiar with. again, i mean no harm by this post. i am only posting it to properly address they "why?" asked initially

[need-a-bow]

I personally see this problem being solved by bigger runs of yoyos but as Heath said its hard to do. It would be nice if companies like Vs Newton could keep cranking them out as they sell out, as to avoid price hike. I'm not exactly sure on the mentality of raising the price to keep away scalpers but that's just me. If I ever start a yoyo company then I might understand. But I'd rather throw then work

[yoyochucker]

With all due respect... trying to counteract scalping by raising your prices is absurd...once again the ONLY one your hurting by using this model is the average consumer, your bread and butter customer. You know what i take that back you will also hurt your company, you are just going to create a rift between you and your customers.


Does it suck that you see the same throw you retial for 120 being sold on a b/s/t for 180 or 200... HELL ya it does. but you know what thats life... you cant turn around and starting making your average yoyo for 200 bucks because of this. you will loose business.

bottom line is its your business, ithink both Heath and Chris make GREAT products but i just dont see the business sense behind a move like whats going on.

 

[Heath]

you dont see near the people scalping YYR as you do my stuff or chris'. its all about initial cost. its what defers scalpers and keeps prices reasonable "overall" (meaning between the dealers and BST) that is how supply and demand works. do your research before calling my college teachings absurd.

the proof is in the BST.

YYR knows whats up (everyone knows i am a big fan), and took action LONG ago. you guys let them, and even though YYSR sells them with a disclaimer saying "may have vibe or ano flaws", people still flock in for them and their 200$ price tag. i know im going to get a spill of how prices are different, but i as a maker can tell you thats crap. (at least to that extent)

what everyone is essentially saying is "to hell with makers making money. scalpers deserve it more." i am not asking for 200$ for an aluminum yoyo. i didnt like charging 120$ for the new Sky Walkers. Prices change. costs RARELY go down. ano costs are up, machining costs are up, and scalpers are making a killing.

i obviously cant explain this in a manner everyone understands, so ill just leave it alone. forces are at work that no one person can control, and to attempt to correct them justly only makes people mad.

ill say again, i dont want to raise prices. i really dont. i hate raising prices.

i am free to explain this further with anyone by PM.

[ratfacedudeguy]

With all due respect... trying to counteract scalping by raising your prices is absurd...once again the ONLY one your hurting by using this model is the average consumer, your bread and butter customer. You know what i take that back you will also hurt your company, you are just going to create a rift between you and your customers.


Does it suck that you see the same throw you retial for 120 being sold on a b/s/t for 180 or 200... HELL ya it does. but you know what thats life... you cant turn around and starting making your average yoyo for 200 bucks because of this. you will loose business.

bottom line is its your business, ithink both Heath and Chris make GREAT products but i just dont see the business sense behind a move like whats going on.

 

But the basic economics of the situation seem to continually be ignored in the whole naysayer's point of view to the argument. Pricing a product is a strive for equilibrium - a point where the product's price is such that it equates to the supply and demand curve to maximize revenue and minimize losses of customers due to overpricing. As it stood before, the price points for the products provided by CLYW and VsNYYC were clearly out of equilibrium as they would sell out instantly from retailers and immediately be resold for higher prices by our resident BST "entrepreneurs." And people continued to buy even given the blatant scalping that was taking place. It's just not business-smart to just sit idly by and just watch this take place without doing anything about it. Would you? If you legitimately saw an opportunity to ethically make more money would you not take it?

It's really not hurting the "end consumer" either as a cohesive unit, because people are still buying them at an alarming rate. Yeah it might hurt you and a handful other people in this thread, and even those not represented who aren't willing to pay up in response to the price hikes, but at the end of the day, the products are still being sold and the people who really want them are getting their yoyos. To be honest with you, even the fact that it was pointed out the fact that canvases are still up "days" after being released is pretty laughable. If it was any other manufacturer/industry, having only a small portion of their product on the shelves days after release would be a pretty significant achievement. People have just become spoiled with this notion of pricing catered toward the customer and only the customer -- the expectation to watch new releases instantly fly off the proverbial e-shelves (and right back up on the bst) while the ones who should be making all the profits sit back and watch all the money they could have made being thrown out the window to a (mouse) trigger happy scalper.

Do you want a raise at your job? Well I'm sure Chris and Heath do too.

Also note that I haven't bought a single CLYW since the Avalanche. But I'm already paying $200 per yoyo on my Japanese throws. And I'm happy to be doing so.

[theTopo]

I'd love a Chief but I've avoided buying one cause of the price. It's not something I need and there're plenty of cheaper alternative options. I don't see what the big deal is.

I think the whole setting prices to push out scalpers is a bit silly, but I doubt that's the sole reason behind the price hikes. It's more that the grossly inflated scalped prices are indicative that the previous retail prices were too low.

CLYW have always been more sought after than most other brands and Chris is simply changing prices to reflect this. You can argue his costs are similar to many other manufacturers, but if his designs are superior (or at least perceived to be by many) aren't they worth more? Doesn't he deserve a greater reward for creating a better product.

And as mentioned, unlike most boutique manufacturers he's trying to make a living off his yo-yo business. He has to make enough money to not only support the business, but also himself.

Ultimately if CLYW's prices are really too high the one who'll suffer the most is Chris as he'll end up with a bunch of unsold stock and a lack of cash flow.

[NathanC]

YYR knows whats up (everyone knows i am a big fan), and took action LONG ago. you guys let them, and even though YYSR sells them with a disclaimer saying "may have vibe or ano flaws", people still flock in for them and their 200$ price tag. i know im going to get a spill of how prices are different, but i as a maker can tell you thats crap. (at least to that extent)

Pretty much all of YYR's price increases are due to Dollar weakness and Yen strength. They haven't raised their prices in years as far as i know.

[ratfacedudeguy]

YYR knows whats up (everyone knows i am a big fan), and took action LONG ago. you guys let them, and even though YYSR sells them with a disclaimer saying "may have vibe or ano flaws", people still flock in for them and their 200$ price tag. i know im going to get a spill of how prices are different, but i as a maker can tell you thats crap. (at least to that extent)

Pretty much all of YYR's price increases are due to Dollar weakness and Yen strength. They haven't raised their prices in years as far as i know.

Well, maybe not. As I understand it, YYR used to charge roughly the same amount for their protos as they did for production models. Check this out:


The standard price for a YYR yoyo on today's market is 14800 yen. As you can see, with the exception of the Acrophobia prototype, everything else is priced lower. 12000 yen is roughly $156 which coincides nicely with their previous pricing model. Man, I would have loved to get ahold of a Gleipnir for 10000 yen (cut off to the right)

[T4T3Z0R]

should scalpers take advantage of my prices, i intend to raise prices as a countermeasure to assure my consumers can get my products at as low of a price as possible. i know people are thinking i am crazy, but that is how supply and demand works. if scalpers are getting 200$+ for a yoyo i sold initially for 120$, i didnt make enough to reach demand. it happens a lot, especially with collectibles.

essentially, those complaining want a person who has done nothing but bought a yoyo to make more on it than the individual who has put HOURS of time and THOUSANDS of dollars into its design, right? what you are basically saying is home brew makers should be punished for not being able to make hundreds of yoyos on the drop of a hat, and that, is bull.

QFT.  when scalpers are making a huge profit off his throws they are exploiting all his hard work.  if you painted a stilllife, sold it to some dude for 20 bucks, and he sold it for 450 dollars, would you continue to sell your paintings for 20 dollars?

[need-a-bow]

That comparison to YYR really helped me understand. But also, doesn't YYR make more yoyos per run? Not too familiar with them as much.

[ratfacedudeguy]

That comparison to YYR really helped me understand. But also, doesn't YYR make more yoyos per run? Not too familiar with them as much.

It's difficult to say because they really don't do much at all in the way of disclosing their run limitations. At least none that's brought to my attention.

[beezy]

The reasons why CLYW and YYR are priced how they are is not the same.

CLYW - Small runs of special colorways resulting in "art" prices. Exclusivity of colorways gives collectors incentive to seek out many versions of the same model yoyo.

YYR - Strong yen vs. dollar, 7075 used on almost all models, innovative design resulting in performance-maximized yoyos that are sought after for clean looks and performance, no special colorway editions.

CLYW easily commands higher resale prices than YYR for certain colorways.

In CLYW's case the intentional "art" aspect has driven resale prices high. An alternate solution would be to not only release art editions, but also a non-limited clear ano with no engravings version. I doubt that will happen, but I'm just saying...

Meanwhile, I just bought a Canvas. I hope I like it!

[Steve Brown™]

I'm going to encourage everyone who doesn't like the way CLYW or vsNYYC or YYR or whoever else runs their business to just go ahead and start their own yo-yo company.

It's been proven time and time again that if you find a good machinist in your area and have some help from your friends or parents or Kickstarter or whatever that you can raise the funds and make it happen.

Chris from CLYW and multiple other people have even been kind enough to answer questions in a thread dedicated to people asking how to start their own yo-yo company. Look it up.

Mostly what I'm hearing is a ton of speculation from people who clearly haven't ever done this, and thus don't fully understand what you need to support yourself entirely off making small run metal yo-yos. And that's fine, everyone gets to have an opinion. But if you REALLY want to understand what you're talking about, and if you really think that you can do it better or cheaper or faster or whatever, then go do it.

But criticizing someone for trying to support themselves by making yo-yos is just petty and jealous and assuming that you know enough about their business to tell them how they *should* be doing it is really presumptuous.

I encourage everyone to start at least one business in their life. I've been self-employed since I quit Duncan in 2006 and I can honestly say that I never really understood how business worked until I had to do it myself. And something else I learned is that complaining about something never changes it...the only thing that you can really do is just do it better yourself.

And who knows, maybe you CAN do it better. If it turns out that way, get in touch and I'll be happy to have you as a sponsor for Triple Crown.

[oldyoyoguy]

if you painted a stilllife, sold it to some dude for 20 bucks, and he sold it for 450 dollars, would you continue to sell your paintings for 20 dollars?

Good analogy, this happens all the time in the art world, and nobody blames the artist for making his/her work popular.  It helps to take a larger view and realize these designers/manufacturers aren't punishing potential customers, they're trying to recoup gains that would otherwise go to someone else (who probably isn't designing killer yo-yos).  I would much rather a designer/manufacturer raise prices and continue to make unique products rather than farm out designs to increase quantity.  There are plenty of producers that already do that, which is excellent, but not everyone has to jump on the bandwagon.

[need-a-bow]

I think I now understand. The more expensive CLYW throws are Art(if the name Canvas didn't already give a hint). There are cheaper versions out there. Now that I think about it people are complaining because of the price hike but look at the price of the rare yoyos. Sure, a run of 3 will be awesome and really expensive but its the exact same yoyo as one with a regular color way. you can still get the normal one for cheaper than what they sell for on the BST. I know there are exceptions but it all comes down to collector value IMO

[yoyochucker]

I guess what it comes down to is.. are you a collectors manufacturer or a players manufacturer. do you want to push art for collectors or yoyos for players? which side do you cater to?

Personally you can keep the artsy fartsy throws give me a solid yoyo with a nice color ( No fancy shiz or laser artwork you can't see that crap when its spinning anyway).

Man all this makes me appreciate YYF all that much more. no insane crazy prices they provide a wide variety of yoyos for all kinds of players (sure they have thier flagship type throws) but they also have MANY affordable throws.

I guess if you can get 200$ per throw all the power to ya ... it just wont be my money.

[yoey]

have my prices really gone up that high? anodizing in such small batches of colorways costs money. when it costs me more, it costs you more. i'd hate to be rude, but thats how it works.

I have no problem with your current prices. What I'm referring to is where you made the following comment in the CLYW Manufacturers thread where the CLYW price hikes were mentioned.

the prices are based on supply and demand.

to be honest, i should probably charge more for my yoyos.

This was after your prices had already gone up, which, again I feel are reasonable.

[GamerOra]

lol You guys. Hilarious. Anyway, Elephark is a long respected member of the yoyo community. One of my favorite yoyoers, to be honest. Where you at, yoyochucker?

Anyway, if people will buy at these prices post market, this means people will at least pay these prices on market. If people will pay that much for it post market, and the producer misses out on the money he could have made himself, he is gonna jump on it. It's just business. If you think someone is scalping yoyos for outrageous prices, call them out on it and don't buy the derned thing.

As for raising the prices for anti-scalping, it's a decent idea. Say the yoyo is $100, but the demand for it SO HIGH that someone can turn them around for $200. They see this and know that they have $1000 to go and buy 10 of this yoyo making twice their money back. Now for the same situation, except the yoyos are now $150, $180, and $200. The demand for the yoyo will still bring $200 and our post market enterpeneur has $1000 for his endeavor. He can now only buy 5 or 6 and he's not making near the profit he was when he last did this. See how this could be detering to some of them? This isn't 100% correct, but you get the general idea.

CLYW is still selling yoyos like a beast, and they've earned the reputation and right to sell their yoyos at whatever price they feel fit. Of course, they know they're going to lose a small audience of their buyers, but they realize they can take that tiny hit. At the end of the day they still run their business, go home, and put food on the table.

You gentlemen/ladies have a nice day now.

[AndyCandy]

I dont know about anyone else but this thread made some things clear to me. Thanks for your insightful answers everyone.

[jrodriguez]

@ OP – My comments aren’t really meant to be directed toward you personally, but rather as general thoughts about threads of this variety – you just happen to be the specific person in this instance. I’m not really sure what positive might have come from this thread. You have publicly criticized the business strategy and ethics of a person who has dedicated a substantial part of their life to their company, and declared that you plan to boycott his company. In your initial post you even said,

Ok im probably going to take a beating for saying this but here it goes.

Again, these comments aren’t just directed at you OP – they’re really for everyone.

If you genuinely want to see a change in a yoyo company’s price structure, or you want to discuss business strategy, the first move is to contact the company. Chris is very accessible, as are the heads/reps of most yoyo companies, which I think is a pretty darn neat part of the world of yoyoing – and my apologies in advance to anyone who tried contacting Chris about this and didn’t hear back from him. However, if you just want to complain, declare the unjustness of a company’s prices, and/or condemn a well-respected member of the community who you haven’t discussed the issues with as “screwing the average player,” be prepared for the thread to devolve post haste, as this one has. Lastly, it’s wise to keep in mind is that this is a small community …

And that's a wrap.